GR Series of Poker 2009 - SYKES WINS MAIN EVENT!

DML wrote:This hand is doing my nut in. Its one in a million, we agree to disagree. End of that.

I thought you wanted discussion?

Anyway I've sent the PM for the Stud event around. I don't think I've forgotten anyone but if I have give me a shout and I'll get it over to you stat.

I'd just like to say well done Jebus I enjoyed my match against Sykes. I didn't play great. Made some decent plays, but never really hit any flops, and felt like I was starting to get a bit outplayed even before the QQ vs AA. So well done Skykes for beating me. Not that it matters as I'm going to rape you all in the ME

Also, can I learn to play Stud to a decent standard by Sunday?

I think we both suffered from being too tight initially and I just loosened up quicker. You've got the basics down to a decent standard, if you open up your hand selection on the button a bit more you'll be fine.

As for your second paragraph, I hope someone does!

DML wrote:This hand is doing my nut in. Its one in a million, we agree to disagree. End of that.

Play more.

Drumstick wrote:Just watching my game with Gaz from his perspective. I like what I see which is nice.

I can remember what I had in most of the hands. The only hand I think I make a mistake (IMO) is when his two pair is better than mine (6:55, T8 < K7), but the early lead I had taken kept us even.

Yeah you played very well. You can see that I didn't get any good cards so I tried to be agressive with what I got but you kept putting me in tricky spots. I was unlucky at the end when you re-raised me all-in after the flop with K high against my Ace high, but I think overall you played better than me anyway.

SpaceJebus wrote:I've just downloaded satriales video and had a very quick flick through, on a very quick glance I don't think you did much wrong and you may be being a bit hard on yourself.

Thanks
I think I did ok with the cards I was given but there were a few hands where I lost a lot more chips than I should have. I just need to play some more heads up as it's not my strongest game.

Wow, I guess I should put my 2 cents in.

TBH I don't have much to add about the hand itself and the way it played out that hasn't been already said by Drumstick and Rex. All I will say is that I didn't put you on a made flush or a king, which leads to something that I do want to make comment about.

DML wrote:It was either a very bad play or he thinks I never have anything and it was a total lack of respect.

Again the play part of it has already been covered here but I'm not sure what you mean by the second part at all. When we were paired together I was gutted to have drawn you first game as you have a reputation for being good at heads up and having watched you play some heads up and some cash games I also think you play quite aggressively. I can sometimes take a little time to get into the swing of things (as the videos will bear witness to) and as I hadn't played for a while this was even more likely to be happen. Very early on I opened up on the flop and you raised quickly into me and I had to fold, so I knew I wasn't going to get much time to settle. There are many other times in the video where I give you respect for your cards and fold to you. On the other hand I also have the impression from having watched you that you can be a bit loose at times and that you also like to play with draws. What I'm trying to say is that at no point did I think you 'never' have anything but for that hand I didn't think I was behind.

At the end of the day it was one hand that could have gone a number of ways say if you had shoved or raised pre or if I had bet out at the turn. As you said we can all learn something to strengthen our games which is why I'm still going to put the videos up even though I know people will disagree with parts of them. Hopefully it will lead to some good discussion and a few suggestions. If you disagree with the decision then that is fine, I personally stand by it but I really don't like what you are implying by saying I didn't show any respect especially when I haven't seen anything that suggests you had any for my hand or after the choice of topic title that I had initially just assumed was a friendly joke. As I've already said I'm going to put the video up soon and I hope you will still join in on any discussion of it as I would like to know your views.

@Rex - Thanks for the tips, I'll certainly bear them in mind when I'm watching the vid back. Looking back I think there are some points you are dead on about and others that you aren't. You are right about me playing it very aggressive against you, I made that decision fairly early on, especially after trying to min-raise or limp and getting slapped down. I don't normally play that aggressively, in fact that was easily the most aggressive and loose I have ever played. The timing thing is interesting I do sometimes visibly give up on a hand and I need to stop making so obvious at times, however I think the timings of somethings may surprise you when you watch the video back. I could well be wrong though as it is very hard to look back at something like that. I'm looking forward to you seeing the vid and your comments afterwards.

@Drumstick - That's a shame as it would have been cool to see the play from your side as well, I know there a couple of hands that I'd really like to know what you were holding.

PsychicSykes wrote:I think we both suffered from being too tight initially and I just loosened up quicker. You've got the basics down to a decent standard, if you open up your hand selection on the button a bit more you'll be fine.

As for your second paragraph, I hope someone does!

DML wrote:This hand is doing my nut in. Its one in a million, we agree to disagree. End of that.

Play more.

Don't be so sarcastic! I have explained why I felt it was a bad play. Rex isn't the be all and end all of poker! If there was always a right answer, we'd all be winning the World Series! The fact that we aren't would suggest theres no right or wrong way to play hands, just better and worse ways.

I limped because he'd been raising my blind almost the whole time. I thought I'd stick with the same plan, and unfortunately that time he limped. That was the history.

I have apologised for the way I went about raging, but we're not all bloody perfect. It seems thats the main problem, me being angry rather than who played the hand what way. I get a hand and people talk about how I need to get my head sorted, my lifestyle changed, my computer sorted, how I should get out the right side of the bed. Anyone else - its 'oh hey, maybe you could have done this'.

The move was 'debatable', and that was is want I wanted to debate, but no - instead, yet again, its become a series of sarcastic remarks from you guys listing every single hand I can't beat etc. Its so petty! I can feel whatever I want to feel, I know my range, and no-one else does, and there is no one hundred percent way to go about things, otherwise we'd all be rich. I apologised to Jebus, and complimented and watched his performance in the final, where he was really good, making scary raises at the right times.

Guess the only way I am gonna do anything is by winning a bracelet, but I'm so pissed off by this whole attitude. I nurse a million bad beat/cooler/bad play stories a week, some I don't agree with exactly in the clubs and pubs, and I'd get my head kicked in if I said 'play more'! What a stupid remark. I'll remember that the next time you moan about the way a hand was played out.

I wanna discuss hands, but I dont want them to send me on strawberry floating tilt as well!

I wasn't being sarcastic DML, I just feel that if you believe thats really a one in a million chance you could do with playing more hands, as that hand doesn't seem that much of a longshot to me.

I dont believe Rex is the be all and end all of poker as you put it, in fact I enjoy arguing with him probably more than anyone else who posts regularly in the poker thread. He is a good player who has good thought processes and happens to be a good heads up player.

I'd like to add that I haven't added me penneth worth on the hand yet but as it stands I don't really have much to add. The hands been dissected and I'm not going to disagree. Jebus called a raise getting good odds on a drawy flop against a player who is loose and bluffy, turned two pair and saw the river for free improving his hand. You hit your flush and the money went in. I don't really see much more to it tbh. I don't really like your limp pre as it makes your decisions more difficult and it's as you were shortstacked I'd be looking to get as much money in quickly to try and double up. That said I think the whole situation could be made clearer if my questions were answered...

PsychicSykes wrote:Why did you limp Jacks? What had the match been like prior to this hand? Had Jebus built up his stack from picking off bluffs or value betting etc...

I haven't really said much on that hand either yet, so here it goes:

DML wrote:My point is that what is he beating at that moment calling a raise? A 9? Hes behind any Queen, any King, and is a dog to anyone with a mega draw or a spade. Any other spade and hes deader then tanktops.

I don't think he is going to be worried about the spades at this point. The chances of you having two spades is very slim and even if you have one spade it is only 40% chance of another spade coming up on the turn or river, so nothing to worry about just yet.

I can't remember what the other flop card was KQx but he really doesn't need to be worried about the straight draws either. Your main criticism was that he called your flop bet (200 into a 600 pot) with 2nd pair, but if he is just putting you on draws then there is no reason why he wouldn't call that bet and see another card.

You definitely got unlucky on the river, but I don't think Jeebus played the hand wrong at all. I don't think you played it bad either (although I would have raised pre-flop), it was just one of those hands that could have gone either way.

PsychicSykes wrote:I wasn't being sarcastic DML, I just feel that if you believe thats really a one in a million chance you could do with playing more hands, as that hand doesn't seem that much of a longshot to me.

I dont believe Rex is the be all and end all of poker as you put it, in fact I enjoy arguing with him probably more than anyone else who posts regularly in the poker thread. He is a good player who has good thought processes and happens to be a good heads up player.

I'd like to add that I haven't added me penneth worth on the hand yet but as it stands I don't really have much to add. The hands been dissected and I'm not going to disagree. Jebus called a raise getting good odds on a drawy flop against a player who is loose and bluffy, turned two pair and saw the river for free improving his hand. You hit your flush and the money went in. I don't really see much more to it tbh. I don't really like your limp pre as it makes your decisions more difficult and it's as you were shortstacked I'd be looking to get as much money in quickly to try and double up. That said I think the whole situation could be made clearer if my questions were answered...

PsychicSykes wrote:Why did you limp Jacks? What had the match been like prior to this hand? Had Jebus built up his stack from picking off bluffs or value betting etc...

I've answered that twice now in other posts, he'd been raising a lot, and I thought he'd do it again so I just limped. Unfortunately he didn't. When I say one in a million, I'm saying in the long run its unimportant, when I say I was coolered, I was. I never said I was bad beat, but it was only the second time I had raised on a flop so I think hes got to give me credit for something. If you think I'm 'loose and bluffy' heads up then you are quite wrong. I was voicing my frustrations because I KNOW that the only way I was putting all my money in and losing was if the runner runner threes came. I still had more than enough to make a comeback.

So rather than reading my posts as 'blah blah blah', perhaps maybe read them and you'll see theres definite sense there. Im not just saying this to annoy you all, I think I have a point! I've admitted I shoulda raised pre-flop, but that was due to the nature of what had gone on at that stage, and I think a shove on the flop with high blinds should have been my play in hindsight.

Been doing a bit of Stud, played a bit before and know a few tricks - I'm quietly confident of a deep finish if I can play on Sunday.

Sparky wrote:Also, can I learn to play Stud to a decent standard by Sunday?

Yes. The most common problem will be people chasing draws and playing far too many hands preflop. Do a little bit of reading online and you will be fine.

DML wrote:Rex isn't the be all and end all of poker! If there was always a right answer, we'd all be winning the World Series!

Now I think you are also being unfair to me. Can I once again emphasise the fact that I said I did not disagree with either of your plays in the hands. I've not once criticised your play or Jebus' play. I think both are fine and it was just an unlucky situation. The only thing I disagreed with is your reaction and failure to accept ideas from those who are probably higher level thinkers. It's not like I am saying I am some sort of poker god who never makes an incorrect decision so I take offense to your comment. Not sure if you are aware but I am training to be a teacher and one thing that has come up lots is that the best teachers are those who are reflective, adaptive and megacognitive. I am prepared to always learn from others and dynamically change the way I do things as I experience more and more. There are simple oodles of people in the poker world who think so far behind what I even consider and I know this. I play £20NL for goodness sake. It just seems like you are portraying me as some sort of egotistical twat who tells and doens't listen. Why do you think I make videos? It isn't to "show off". I do it for two reasons. 1. To allow others to feedback on my play and as a consequence I can reflect and consider alternatives. 2. To allow others to let their game be affected my by decisions. I think most people in this thread are quite receptive to criticism and as a result develop their game but you I don't see this with. You tend to be unprepared to accept that you may have made the wrong decision and take offense. When I get told I did something wrong I prefer to try to understand why.

I also don't think other people view me in this light like you do. I think others see me as just sharing my ideas but at the end of the day I probably do have the most experience, in terms of volume for sure and I have a proven record of cash game profit. It's not me just saying "NO THIS IS WRONG", just using what I have established through experience to try and help others. Obviously I must be doing something correct because I've made in excess of £3,000 from low stakes cash games. Equally I understand that people should give equal thought to everyone's views and of course I make mistakes every single session. But don't you think it is simply natural to listen to advice of those who are doing what you want to achieve? If someone is making money at higher stakes than I am then I am obviously going to listen to everything they have to offer. In fact I am bloody thankful for anytime anyone is prepared to take to talk through my hands, everyone here included.

DML wrote:The fact that we aren't would suggest theres no right or wrong way to play hands, just better and worse ways.

Well of course this is quite deep and philosophical but until you move away from this idea then I don't think you will make much progress. Every situation has a perfect mathematical solution whether you like it or not, it's just we cannot possibly take into account all of the variables that affect the outcome of the situation. What we do in our head is attempt to model this the best we can with simplifications and assumptions in order to select what we deem the best strategy. I think you need to be prepared to take other people's ideas and subsitute them for yours where they make a better fit. Note once again that I wasn't saying this hand was played badly but there have certainly been instances where you have tried to justify quite obviously "wrong" plays and IMO been quite unreceptive.

DML wrote:The move was 'debatable', and that was is want I wanted to debate, but no - instead, yet again, its become a series of sarcastic remarks from you guys listing every single hand I can't beat etc. Its so petty!

No. ONCE again I never said anyone made a bad play. I simply pointed out that your reaction was severly OTT and unfair. I also have a problem with people stating inaccuracies. The fact is your logic was wrong and you 1. Are not prepared to accept mathematical truths 2. Won't bother to look it up yourself and understand. You felt you were ahead of lots of things in that hand but in truth you were so so far away in terms what your equity was. Download pokerstove and use it. If you have problems with it ask me and I will help you. The amount of use I get out of this resource is insane.

DML wrote:I can feel whatever I want to feel, I know my range, and no-one else does, and there is no one hundred percent way to go about things, otherwise we'd all be rich. I apologised to Jebus, and complimented and watched his performance in the final, where he was really good, making scary raises at the right times.

Your statements contradict eachother. If there isn't a "right" way then he cannot possibly make moves at the right times. Surely he can make a move that wins the hand and it still be wrong? It is just "right" in the specfic and not the general. As per the previous paragraph though, there is a 100% solved mathematical solution to every spot that yields the maximum EV. RE: Being rich. There are solutions to every situation, we are just better at solving some because they are easier. I make small amounts of money because I can make a better approximation to a situation than others. Tom Dwan makes loads of money because he can make good approximations in insanely complication situations and peel off layers I do not yet know exist. The fact that I am not a millionaire does not mean I don't think deeper than you in a poker mindset, just means I don't think deep enough or know enough relative to others to make such a profit.

DML wrote:Guess the only way I am gonna do anything is by winning a bracelet, but I'm so pissed off by this whole attitude. I nurse a million bad beat/cooler/bad play stories a week, some I don't agree with exactly in the clubs and pubs, and I'd get my head kicked in if I said 'play more'! What a stupid remark. I'll remember that the next time you moan about the way a hand was played out.

Once again with the facts and fiction. Obviously a million is an exaggeration which I won't take literally but how many hands do you really play a week? How many hands have you played in your life? I'd bet I've played more hands of HU alone than you've been dealt over all types of poker. I've probably played more hands in the last week than you have in a couple of months? How many bad beats do you think I've come up against? Do you see me moan about it and take it out on someone else? If I post a bad beat I just say what happened and that's pretty much the end of it. Sad face etc. Not only that if hands go badly I seek advice rather than just auto assume I was correct and that's the end of it. I actually keep a LOT of the bad beats to myself. The only person you can truely ask is Aaron. Being my housemate he will confirm I can get AI with 90% equity and then just forget about it a minute later if I lost. It doesn't matter. Of course sustained bad luck is not great but I think you need to really check if you are running under EV or not. As far as I am aware you have not put anything through some software and given how ideas on pot equity perhaps things are not going quite as badly as you sometimes think? Maybe there are just leaks in your play? However insane or unfair that may sound you do need to consider it.

Above all though if you take anything from my post it's that nobody is out to get you. Nobody wants you to fail at poker. I post in this thread to boost my own knowledge by sharing experiences and to try and help others by sharing mine. If I wanted you to lose money I'd just tell you nonesense but I don't, I try to help. I'd just like to see your attitude towards poker, bankroll management, "luck" and criticism change a bit. If you really want to get far with poker then for the final bloody time, make a video and post hands on a regular basis. Not sure if anyone here knows about Vygotsky's theories of learning and the zone of proximal development but social interaction is essential for the learning process. Share your experiences and you will learn better. I'm sorry if you feel picked on or offended but I assure you it's nobody's intention to make you feel bad. Understandably people have different attitudes and values but I still see you as a friend and a welcome member in the thread. I'd just like you to see me as someone who wants to help rather than someone who is arrogant and offensive.

@ Jebus. Looking forward to the video then. Of course my reads won't all be correct! I expect you pulled some sneaky moves out but I was just completely run over. I like the way you adjusted though, as you said. I won't allow limping or weak raising and your aggression seemed to work as a perfect counter to this! I hope to get my video up soon though because I did think I ran on the worse side of things!

Rex, when I say sarcasm, I mean things like this....

Rex McGee wrote:

DML wrote:My point is that what is he beating at that moment calling a raise?

JJ

DML wrote:Hes behind any Queen

He's ahead of Q2 and splitting with Q3.

DML wrote:and is a dog to anyone with a mega draw or a spade.

He is ahead of As8x/As7x/As6x/As5x/As4x/As3x/As2x/Js8x/Js7x/Js6x/Js5x/Js4x/Js3x/Js2x/Ts8x/Ts7x/Ts6x/Ts5x/Ts4x/Ts3x/8s2x/8s8x/8s7x/8s6x/8s5x/8s4x/8s3x/8s2x/7s8x/7s7x/7s6x/7s5x/7s4x/7s3x/7s2x/6s8x/6s7x/6s6x/6s5x/6s4x/6s3x/6s2x/5s8x/5s7x/5s6x/5s5x/5s4x/5s3x/5s2x/4s8x/4s7x/4s6x/4s5x/4s4x/4s3x/4s2x/3s8x/3s7x/3s6x/3s5x/3s4x/3s3x/3s2x/2s8x/2s7x/2s6x/2s5x/2s4x/2s3x/2s2x/

Where x =/= s

Each of which contains a spade. Not only that he is ahead of all hands involving a gutshot and no spade by a mile (75%)

My problem is you are acting like:

1. You flopped a boat and he flopped quads
2. He made the most terrible play in the world despite being ahead the entire time and having 47% equity.

That is advice, but its advice delivered with spite. Thats undoubtable. I DO listen, but I also put my heart and soul into playing, I have a lot of heart and play with emotion. Things will get to me! But after fifteen minutes cooling off, I'm back, watching the final and watching some good poker. I reacted badly, but so have others in this self same thread. The 'S'pose' was clearly a joke and not meant to offend anyone.

I talk and play a LOT of poker. I mean you may play more but I play almost every day, and y'know....I've done not bad. I'm learning all the time and I am very receptive, my real life moker friends share hands all the time. So I'm not as uncouth as you assume. I'm also not as good as I want to be.

That said, the fact my hand was immediately posted in the thread to be torn apart wouldn't have happened to anyone else in the thread, and there have been time in this thread when guys haven't read what I have said because they are still asking me questions I've already answered. By listing a load of bluffs, you further push this stereotype that I'm a maniac or a fish who doesn't have a clue what he is doing. Truth is assuming I have hit, and have raised, which I'm ninety nine percent to have hit assuming I have hit that flop, he is behind almost any Queen, and King, any two pair, any set, two spades - all the hands I'm likely to be raising with.

He is ahead of nothing I will raise with there except a bluff, which I'm clearly very unlikely to be doing as raises tend to be as much explorative incisive bets at this stage as they are to get all the money in the middle. This all makes sense. The end result is a cooler, I have a draw that I cant really get away from, and he has hit his FH. I agree the limp is bad, but I have explained why had done it.

I have never suggested it was a bad beat, but it was unlucky and I am allowed to vent if I want to. I just want to talk hands without it being blatantly vindictive. I am not wrong. You are not wrong. It is up for discussion, so stop acting like I've just slapped your mom and then claimed that the sky is green. I want to share and partake in discussions, but if I am told I am wrong, and then people continue to talk when they havent read my reasonings at all, which has been very obvious at times, then theres no point in sharing in the first place. More than half a poker hand is whats happening in the head, if you can't hear that out, then we're not really analysing the hand.

--------------------------------------------------------------

That's the end of that debate, I want to hear no more. Lets concentrate on the Stud Event coming up.

DML wrote:That said, the fact my hand was immediately posted in the thread to be torn apart wouldn't have happened to anyone else in the thread, and there have been time in this thread when guys haven't read what I have said because they are still asking me questions I've already answered. By listing a load of bluffs, you further push this stereotype that I'm a maniac or a fish who doesn't have a clue what he is doing.

Sorry but this is completely untrue. I don't think anyone would dispute that it was a very interesting hand, one which would yield good debate and I requested it to be posted so that everyone who didn't see it could post their own views. Also, on a number of occasions, PsychicSykes and myself have posted hands we have seen the other play and disagreed with, however this is because we talk about poker a lot and are often playing, therefore we see a lot of each other's games. In addition to this I would not hesitate to post a hand I felt was interesting regardless of who played it - I am sure I have posted hands throughout the thread made by almost everyone.

The only person who has criticised anybody is you. There is no witch hunt, nobody is out to get you, nobody has called you a bad player and nobody is calling you names. It does, however, seem that on occasion you cannot accept the viewpoint of others, and are unwilling to listen to constructive criticism.

I appreciate that you want to end this debate but blame my work for keeping me late.

SpaceJebus wrote:@Drumstick - That's a shame as it would have been cool to see the play from your side as well, I know there a couple of hands that I'd really like to know what you were holding.

When you put your videos up, let me know the times of the hands you want to know what I had.

Why should I listen if they don't listen back? Thats the problem. Theres no debate without both halves! The only thing I regret is the way I reacted, but its that passion that makes me a good poker player in the long run.

I just don't want to EVER come in here EVER AGAIN, and be told 'play more' in a sarcastic way, or see every single bluffed hand listed, because thats definitely not constructive. You guys promise me that, and I promise I won't lambast a fellow's play again.

Ok fair play. FWIW I posted the hand here because nobody else bar me had the table open and hence access to the HH. It was an interesting hand to discuss. If we all agree on a hand then there is no point discussing it is there!

I apologise for the whole "DML = fish" thing. It is only supposed to be a bit of a joke and I'm sure you know that but some of your early play when the thread started just gave you a bit of a nickname. Fish can become sharks though and sharks can even become the fish.

I'm not too sure about the stud. I intend to play quite tight as most people massively over value their hands. Tip from me is that if you are drawing still at 5th street then fold. You want some sort of made hand by this point.

Tip from me is fold every time you get dealt three of a kind at the start.

I imagine that in a tournament situation Stud is kinda high variance as well...

Come on we need more players for Stud its going to be the most intresting of all the tournies I recon.

Slayerx wrote:Come on we need more players for Stud its going to be the most intresting of all the tournies I recon.

I should be playing (it's like 99% certain) but I haven't entered yet until I know for sure which should be later this afternoon. I haven't really played 7 card so it should be interesting, I've done some reading around it though

Guys don't forget to register before 7:30 if you want to play.